Original article by Guillaume Grallet, Le Monde
Original translation: angelilu, Foresight News
Editors note: Ten months after being prosecuted and banned from leaving the country by France in August 2024, Telegram founder and CEO Pavel Durov was allowed yesterday to leave France for 14 days starting from July 10, but only to Dubai (his family is in Dubai) and he must continue to be subject to judicial supervision.
French magazine Le Point interviewed Pavel Durov, co-founder and CEO of encrypted messaging app Telegram, in his longest interview to date, in which he talked about what it was like to be interrogated in France, revealed information about several state power agencies and intelligence services, including the FBI and the French Directorate-General for External Security (DGSE), expressed his fight for free speech and his concerns about the future of democracy, his firm refusal to sell Telegram, and his deep feelings for France. He also shared his views on Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, and ChatGPT creator Sam Altman.
Pavel Durov also revealed that he had made a will at the age of 40, and his wealth would be equally distributed to his six biological children and more than 100 children born from sperm donation, and he required his children not to inherit his property within 30 years. His maintenance secret to look so young is to stay away from all possible addictions, not drinking alcohol, coffee or tea, not smoking, staying away from sugar, and doing 300 push-ups every morning without interruption, followed by 300 squats.
Pavel Durov said that Telegram is a source of expenditure for him, not a source of income, and his liquid assets are much less, and they do not come from Telegram, but from his investment in Bitcoin in 2013. His view on AI is that the current large model is not smart, and his brother Nikolai is developing truly smart AI.
The following is the full interview:
You are charged with 17 very serious crimes involving child pornography, drug trafficking, money laundering... Do you understand what you are charged with?
Pavel Durov: This is completely ridiculous. Just because criminals use our messaging service among many platforms does not make the people who run it criminals... There has never been any evidence that I committed any crime for even a second. But it seems that I have been punished at this stage by a ban on leaving the country. Its as if the French judges understood that there was not enough substance for a real conviction and wanted to punish me today. They said that Telegram refused to cooperate. This is wrong. It was the French police who did not follow the international procedures correctly. The Telegram team even had to show them how to do it correctly.
Have you been summoned by the judicial system?
I met with the judge in charge of my case twice, in December 2024 and February 2025. There is another appointment in July. But this is crazy... I understand that things take time. But why do I have to stay in France and wait? My lawyers have submitted to the judicial system all the documents they requested.
The first few days were difficult...
I was interrogated constantly in the judicial customs facility. For four days, I answered all the questions. At night, a bright light illuminated the 7 square meter room where I slept on a concrete bed. The room was clean but there were no pillows. The mattress [he used his thumb and index finger to indicate thickness] was no thicker than a yoga mat.
You seem to be very affected by being forbidden to leave French territory...
Yes, very much so. My parents have very serious health issues and statistically speaking, they only have a few years left to live. I lost precious time with them. In addition, I have a newborn son whose first few months of life I missed. He still doesn’t have a passport because I was not there for his birth in Dubai. I also have a teenage son in boarding school in Dubai who just broke his arm and has no parents around to support him.
Does this situation have any impact on your activities?
Yes, it is. For example, I was supposed to speak at the Oslo Freedom Forum last May. The chairperson of the forum was Yulia Navalnaya (Foresight News Note: Yulia Navalnaya is the wife of the late Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny), and I wanted to meet her, as well as activists from other parts of the world, to understand how they use Telegram and what we can improve. The judge banned me from going there. We had to do a live interview via video conference. I have been fighting for free speech for almost two decades. Navalny sometimes expressed opinions that I agreed with, and sometimes made statements that I disagreed with - but he had a fundamental right to free expression, which I always insisted on. Faced with the Russian authorities, I had only two choices: either give in to their demands or sell my shares and leave the country.
A question that is often asked: Are you close to Vladimir Putin?
I met a senior Russian official only once, in 2013. At the time I was the head of VKontakte (the Russian Facebook), and I refused to provide information about regime opponents. The meeting lasted no more than 15 minutes. The senior Russian official insisted that, in his opinion, the social network should be a government tool. Then I had two choices: either I did exactly what the Russian authorities expected me to do, or I sold my company shares and left the country. The Russian regime gave me the freedom to choose. So I told them: I understand, thank you very much. Two months later, I sold my shares in VKontakte. I have not set foot in Moscow for more than ten years.
Have you cooperated with Russian authorities in any way?
No. We process reports from Russia and other countries to remove obviously illegal content (such as open promotion of the sale of illegal drugs), but we have never met requests related to political censorship or political persecution. During my time at VKontakte, I publicly refused to cooperate with this. I was even summoned by the Russian judiciary. In 2014, I left everything.
According to the media Important Stories, you continue to travel to Russia. Some people say: If you are still alive, it is because you have an agreement with the Kremlin...
I went to Russia to visit my family in St. Petersburg between 2015 and 2017 - it was never a secret, I even posted about it on social networks. I also went there to support my father during the coronavirus pandemic. But I havent been back for four years, since the first articles appeared in 2021 mentioning a possible war with Ukraine.
Before coming to France, you lived in Azerbaijan...
Before coming to Paris last August, I went to Azerbaijan via Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan and Kyrgyzstan. I stopped in Baku, where President Putin arrived two days after I left the mountains. I met neither him nor anyone from his entourage. During this trip, I met only the President of Azerbaijan, and we discussed the role of Telegram in the country. You know, in three years, I met 16 heads of state. I did not always agree with them.
Does this mean that you agree with the policies of Ilham Aliyev, who is considered to be a dictator?
You know, in three years, I met with 16 heads of state. I didnt always agree with them. Like Paul Kagame in Rwanda. You can criticize his methods, but what he did in Rwanda was impressive. I realized it when I went to the villages. I saw that despite the poverty and history that the country had gone through, people were still smiling and wanted to survive.
In your opinion, how has the war in Ukraine affected peoples perception of Telegram?
In Russia, they say Telegram supports Ukraine. In Ukraine, they say Telegram spreads Russian propaganda. In reality, we have a duty to be neutral. Telegram is a platform where different ideas can collide, where everyone is exposed to different viewpoints and freely decides what they want to believe. I will never comment on geopolitical conflicts, because this will immediately be interpreted as supporting one of the two camps, and a neutral platform cannot do this if it wants to remain impartial and apply the same rules to everyone. But I will always fight for fair access to free and independent information. Once you legitimize censorship, it is difficult to go back.
You have expressed concerns about Europe’s Digital Services Act, which aims to combat false, hateful or illegal content on online platforms...
These laws are dangerous because they can be used against the people who created them. Today, they target so-called conspiracy theorists. Tomorrow, they might target their own authors. These precedents weaken democracy in the long run. Once you legitimize censorship, it’s hard to go back.
You are sometimes compared to Elon Musk...
Yes, but we are very different. Elon manages several companies at once, while I manage only one. Elon can be very emotional, while I try to think carefully before I act. But this can also be a source of his strength. One persons strength can often become a weakness in another context.
What do you think are Mark Zuckerbergs (Facebook founder) strengths and weaknesses?
Mark is adaptable and able to follow trends quickly, but he seems to lack the fundamental values that would stay true to him no matter how the political climate or the fashions in the tech industry change. Likewise, Marks strengths and weaknesses may have the same roots. Remove the weaknesses, and you remove the strengths.
What about Sam Altman, the founder of ChatGPTs parent company OpenAI?
Sam has excellent social skills, which enabled him to build a coalition around ChatGPT. But one wonders whether his technical expertise will remain sufficient after his co-founder Ilya [Sutskever, editors note] and many other scientists left OpenAI. It will be interesting to track the development of ChatGPT and their ability to stay ahead in an increasingly competitive environment. I want to point out that I do not treat my children differently.
You often talk about your family. What place does it play in your life?
Its very important. I recently wrote my will... I decided that my children will not get my property until thirty years from today. I want them to live like normal people, grow up on their own, learn to trust themselves, be able to create, and not rely on a bank account. I want to point out that I dont differentiate between my children: those conceived naturally and those from my sperm donation. They are all my children and will have the same rights! I dont want them to fight each other after I die.
How many children do you have?
I have six children with three different partners. The others are from my anonymous donation. I started donating sperm to a clinic 15 years ago to help a friend and the clinic told me that over 100 babies have been conceived this way in 12 countries.
Why write this will now? Its rare at 40...
My job involves risks - defending freedom makes you many enemies, including those within powerful states. I want to protect my children, and I want to protect Telegram, the company I founded. I want Telegram to always be true to the values I defend.
You look young...
I follow a strict life and exercise routine, doing 300 push-ups every morning without a break, followed by 300 squats - also in a row. I dont drink alcohol, coffee or tea, dont smoke, stay away from sugar. In short, stay away from everything that can make you addicted. I like to be in cold water. I sometimes swim in Finland or Lake Geneva in the middle of winter - this may cause confusion (he smiles).
Telegram What happens after you...?
If I disappear, a non-profit foundation will take over. My goal is to ensure the continuity of the platform: I want it to continue to exist independently, respecting privacy and free speech.
In the past, you have been targeted by Pegasus spyware. However, you can...
I dont carry my phone with me. I use my iPad to manage Telegram app and video conferencing work meetings. I prefer to read, think and write rather than staring at my phone. This frees me. My team knows how to contact me and I can stay focused. Attention is our most precious asset today. Notifications are parasites in our lives.
Is this a form of digital asceticism?
Exactly. I prefer to protect my thoughts. Its also a sign of respect for the people I interact with: Im there, with them, truly present.
Should people under 15 be banned from using social networks?
Initiatives of this kind are ineffective in my opinion. Children can easily use VPNs. This is not feasible. The most important thing is to instill discipline. We must show them that success through hard work brings invaluable confidence. Prohibitions are meaningless if adults themselves do not lead by example.
Do you consider yourself a political entrepreneur?
I am apolitical. I have never voted. But I am a tireless defender of freedom.
Is Donald Trump fueling global unrest?
Im not a fan of everything he does, but I think its a mistake and even very dangerous to ban Donald Trump from social networks. It sets a precedent. If we can allow ourselves to do that to a former US president, then it means everyone is vulnerable.
Is that why you defend free speech?
Exactly. Today, it may be the bad guys who are being censored. But tomorrow, it may be you. Freedom cannot be defended in half.
How do you explain Telegrams strong growth without ads?
Our starting point is to bet on human intelligence. If we offer consumers a better experience than our competitors, they will test it and adopt it. In addition, people often use multiple apps: one for work, another for personal life, another for study.... In addition, our app consumes very little memory or bandwidth, which makes it very popular in countries such as Afghanistan and Iran. Although Telegram has been banned by the Iranian government since 2018 for refusing to block protesters channels.
Even if part of this is through Russian-based infrastructure or data centers?
We don’t have, and never have, infrastructure in Russia.
Do you feel like some of your competitors are copying you?
WhatsApp has always copied our innovations with a five-year lag... But this doesnt bother me, it validates our choices. Ive met with Mark Zuckerberg. I respect his business leadership, but to be honest, with so many resources, I think they could have been more original. I recently learned that WhatsApp has set up a team dedicated to monitoring our movements...
You prefer Signal communication...
Yes, I met its head, Meredith Whitaker, in Paris last year. She struck me as a smart, reasonable person. Sure, we debate who uses the best encryption. I will continue to wonder why all US messaging services (Signal, WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Google Messages) use the exact same encryption, as if using something else is forbidden. But fundamentally, Telegram and Signal are on the same side of the challenges we must overcome.
Telegram has received several acquisition offers...
Google tried to acquire Telegram when we were just starting out. I met with Sundar Pichai (Google CEO) in Mountain View in 2017 and he offered $1 billion. Google was eager to acquire a messaging service because they missed out on WhatsApp, which was eventually acquired by Facebook. They had tried to build their own messaging app but found it incredibly difficult. Building a successful messaging app is like growing a tree; it takes time and careful nurturing.
Why do you refuse?
I didnt hesitate for a second. It wasnt about the price. Telegram wasnt for sale. Because Telegram wasnt a product. It was a project. An idea. A promise of independence, confidentiality, and freedom to its users. If you sold it, youd be betraying that promise. It was impossible. I would never do that.
Are you still the sole shareholder of Telegram?
Yes, I own 100% of the company. There are no external shareholders, and therefore no interference. This is the only way to guarantee complete independence of Telegram. I learned a lesson from the history of VKontakte. As soon as you share control, you lose freedom.
Looking back, do you have any regrets about the development of Telegram?
Not really. We have a team of about fifty people based in Dubai - thats enough. A small team can move faster. We also work with more than 1,000 service providers in other parts of the world (mostly content reviewers), but the number of developers does not need to increase with the number of users. We sometimes hire new engineers, choosing them from the winners of the coding competitions we organize regularly. One of our recent recruits won our competitions 17 times in eight years - he was only 22 years old. My brother Nikolai is currently working on real AI - AI that can think logically and understand the world.
Are you impressed by artificial intelligence?
The problem is that todays generative AI like LLMs (Large Language Models) doesnt think. It doesnt understand, it just reads a lot of text and repeats a consensus version. It looks credible, but its not necessarily so. And we humans are fooled because we associate complex language with intelligence. But these models are not intelligent. Theyre just complex. My brother Nikolai (referring to Pavel Durovs brother Nikolai Durov) is currently working on real artificial intelligence - artificial intelligence that can think logically and understand the world.
Will it replace some jobs?
We are experiencing an unprecedented acceleration of technology. For teenagers, adaptation is natural. But for experienced professionals, like lawyers or doctors, who command high salaries, the transition will be brutal. As good as they are, their perceived value in the market may decrease. Yes, jobs will disappear. But history shows that other jobs emerge. What matters is the wealth created. Not having to work like a slave and being able to live like a king is an improvement. There is a place for everyone as long as we want to create and contribute to society.
What about Telegram?
AI enables us to conduct efficient moderation. Thanks to it, we can remove up to 99% of problematic content. Millions of posts per hour, impossible to process manually. Each user can also summarize discussion threads, documents, correct texts, translate, find writing help...
What role does your brother play in your life?
Nikola is a genius, but he has not been involved in Telegrams operations for many years. In recent years, he has focused on basic research, such as designing an infinitely scalable blockchain architecture.
Telegram generates 500 million euros in profits, making you rich...
Telegram never paid me dividends, and I didn’t have a salary — for me, Telegram was a source of expenses, not income. I wanted the project to exist, so I spent almost all the money I got from selling my VKontakte shares (more than $200 million) to build Telegram. Then we raised funds for Telegram’s blockchain project, but after being banned by the SEC in 2020, we had to return investor funds. We returned everything. But for this, we had to go into debt for $2 billion. Telegram still carries this debt.
In Paris, you mainly stayed at the Hôtel de Crillon, a palace. Did you develop an interest in this kind of luxurious living?
I don’t own a house, a yacht or a private jet — although I rent them sometimes — and I love staying in beautiful hotels. I think owning things distracts me from my mission: building Telegram. Last October, I realized that I had been wearing the same pair of shoes for four years in a row (my friends gave me a new pair for my 40th birthday). I only have one formal suit, but most of the time I wear sportswear — usually Adidas or Nike. The media says my wealth is estimated at between $15 billion and $20 billion, but this is just a theoretical estimate of what Telegram might be worth. Since I’m not selling Telegram, it doesn’t matter. I don’t have this money in a bank account. My liquid assets are much smaller — and they don’t come from Telegram: they come from my investment in Bitcoin in 2013.
Did the poverty you experienced as a child help you achieve success?
I remember very well the black jacket I wore as a teenager. I only had one and I loved it. My mother bought it secondhand in a small neighborhood store in St. Petersburg. She had two jobs: a German translator and a legal assistant at an American law firm. My father taught for a long time without being paid. The Russian state went bankrupt in the 1990s. It was hard, but educational. Even when I was sick, I never missed classes. My mother said, You are not sick, you go to school.
On May 18, you accused France of influencing the Romanian elections, which was denied by the French Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the DGSE...
It was a private conversation in the Battles salon of the Clion Hotel, where I spoke with Nicola Rainer, the head of the DGSE, and a DGSE agent who worked at the French Embassy in the UAE. Nicola told me, “We might have a problem in Romania,” and asked me if I could delete the Telegram channels run by supporters of a conservative candidate in the Romanian presidential elections—those that already existed and those that might appear in the future. I remember him mentioning that he thought there was a risk that these channels would start organizing demonstrations. My answer was very clear: I had not suppressed protesters in Belarus, Russia, Iran or Hong Kong, and I would not start doing so in Romania. I told them that if they thought that because I was stuck in France, I would comply with all demands, they were very wrong. I would rather die than go against my values and betray my users.
Have you communicated with the French secret services?
Yes, I was always reachable by the French authorities, because my office was in the same building as the French Consulate in Dubai. A DGSE agent working for the French Embassy, accompanied by colleagues, would sometimes come to see me in the office and ask Telegram to help their counter-terrorism efforts in France — faster than the usual legal process would allow, because the situation was urgent. Last July, he again asked me to help prevent a possible attack during the Olympics. We helped, and he thanked me for it. A month later... I was arrested in Paris.
Does Telegram transmit data to authorities?
Telegram employees cannot view or read users messages, which explains why we have never disclosed a single private message in our entire history. If we receive a court decision stating that a certain identifier is suspected in a criminal investigation, we analyze metadata, which allows us to provide IP addresses and phone numbers. Thats all.
When was the last time you spoke to Emmanuel Macron (French President)?
For a long time, he could send me messages on Telegram on various topics. The last time was the day of my statement about the Romanian elections and the DGSE. He sent me a message (he smiled). I did not answer him.
What if he suggested meeting you?
I would refuse.
For what reason?
He understood certain things but could have done better. I had high hopes for him, he had a real vision. But as the end of his second term approaches, I see that he has not made the right choices. I am very disappointed. France is getting weaker. There is an obsession with communication, and real strength is not shown but demonstrated. Reality has become an illusion, like a Potemkin village.
President Macron facilitated your French naturalization in 2021 as an outstanding foreigner, just like Snap co-founder Evan Spiegel...
Yes, it makes my position more delicate. I have a deep respect for French culture and history. It is an honor to be associated with France. But the direction the president is taking worries me.
Do you question his long-term vision?
Prosperity comes from competition between ideas, companies, policies. And today, France does not encourage this. The country is losing competitiveness. This is paradoxical because the French have unique talents and the ability to do things in a balanced and beautiful way. They can contribute more effectively to the global economy.
They failed to do that?
Yes. Many of the best talents are leaving. We see more and more of them in Dubai, Abu Dhabi, the United States, Milan... Its a real brain drain.
Why choose Dubai instead of Paris?
I chose Dubai because I can manage a global company more efficiently there. Unlike France, where bureaucracy is heavy, Dubai offers a flexible environment. Procedures there are automated, supported by artificial intelligence, and almost everything is done online. Even justice is faster. In France, a simple tax investigation could freeze a companys accounts for years until it suffocates, even if it is later clarified. This heaviness kills entrepreneurship.
Why not the United States?
One of the main reasons is the pressure that the US government can bring, especially to bear on tech companies. Of course, the US is not the only country that wants to control platforms. But I have already received pressure from the FBI. Moreover, in the US, there is a legal procedure that allows the government to force an engineer to install a backdoor in software without him having the right to warn anyone, not even his employer. This mechanism is called a gag order. If an engineer discloses this to his boss, he could go to jail. Such laws offer the government the possibility to legally turn your own employees into spies without you knowing it. And then there was the incident in San Francisco - the only time I was physically attacked. I will never forget it.
Back to France: No political leader finds favor in your eyes?
Politicians often lack courage. They always look for scapegoats to explain why they have failed. In France, a country where residents are demanding and prone to complain, this attitude only makes things worse. Instead of saying to citizens, as adults, Its up to us. We have to roll up our sleeves and get to work, they blame Trump and his tariffs, the role of tech giants, immigrants... Depending on which party is speaking, the culprit changes names.
Is it too late to reform France?
If you raise one or two generations with a certain mentality, it takes decades to change it. If we keep wasting time, the risk that the country will have to go through very extreme changes increases. Just like with the Soviet Union in the 1990s, we witnessed economic collapse, anarchy, crime, drug abuse. Then, Russia emerged from this crisis with a vibrant private sector and strong growth. Then, 15 years later, everything deteriorated again for other reasons. When you delay necessary reforms for too long, you eventually experience collapse. The French dont realize that freedom and prosperity are not God-given.
Do you think you are being watched every day?
When I lived in Russia, I recognized the agents who followed me, even in the subway. Today, I don’t even think about it anymore. Xavier Niel, with whom I used to walk in Paris, once said to me jokingly: “Since intelligence services from different countries are following you, you don’t need private security. They are everywhere, even on the rooftops, there, watching you!”
Do you believe in God?
I believe there is more to this life than just the physical. There is an invisible dimension that we sometimes feel deeply but cannot name. I was baptized as a Christian, but I am also very interested in Eastern traditions like Taoism or Buddhism. I have been practicing meditation and yoga for a long time. For me, all religions try to express the same basic truth in their own cultural language. I dont want to limit myself to a single path.
Some suggest we live in a simulation orchestrated by aliens...
It is possible. Civilizations have always tried to explain the invisible world with the tools of their time. Before, it was reincarnation, the soul. Today, with technology, we talk about simulation. It is just a contemporary way of expressing the ancient mystery. A hundred years from now, we will use other metaphors. Perhaps more powerful ones.
Technology is so powerful, it can also pollute...yet you are concerned about the spread of microplastics...
These ubiquitous particles in our water, air, food, may eventually affect our civilization in an insidious way, a bit like lead weakened the health of the Romans. History remembers their empire but not the role lead played — in pipes, utensils — weakening generations. Today, we observe a rapid decline in male sperm concentrations in many regions, in part due to plastics. If we continue to ignore these invisible pollutants, we pose a threat not only to our individual health but to our very survival. The real danger is uniformity. The world has become too homogenous.
Do you speak Italian?
Every time I hear someone speaking Italian, it touches me. It reminds me of my school days in Turin, where my father taught as a professor of classical philology, when I was between 4 and 8 years old. One teacher from Calabria was especially kind to me. The others, they were a bit teasing: little communist, Soviet kid... Northern Italians are sometimes a bit arrogant and not very welcoming to people from the south or foreigners. But the vast majority of residents are very welcoming.
Do you still believe in democracy, even though it has never been more threatened than it is now?
As long as there are different visions and people can choose, democracy is still a good system. Some people think other systems can work - enlightened monarchy, for example - but what if the successor is incompetent? The real danger is uniformity. The world has become too homogeneous. The same products, the same culture everywhere... This standardization makes us fragile. We must maintain diversity of systems, ideas, approaches.
